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Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Saranel Binyon 
January 28, 1998 
Cassette 2, Side 1 
 
 
Katherin Hervey  00:04 
Saranel Binyon, tape number two, January 28, 1998. Okay, starting back again to childhood 
today, you said that when you first, as a child, could see the energy fields that you found it 
amusing. Like, can you explain, did you play games with them? Or, you know exactly, how was 
it amusing?  
 
Saranel Binyon  00:30 
It was amusing in that I could see what people thought, and yet they'd say something else. And I 
always thought that was funny. For instance, if someone really didn't like somebody, the auras 
would draw away, and yet they would be very friendly and nice to them. And it took me a while 
to understand, liar, liar, liar, and that was always [?amusing?]. Or if someone was pretending to 
be ill, I could tell. And that was funny, because I had an aunt that was always sick and healthy, 
she was the healthiest one of us. And that sort of thing was funny too.  
 
Katherin Hervey  01:01 
So, you could see auras when people were doing that to you as well, when they were responding 
to you? 
 
Saranel Binyon  01:10 
As a rule. 
 
Katherin Hervey  01:12 
So, that would be interesting, because, you'd know like, who to trust, who not to trust. 
 
Saranel Binyon  01:16 
Not always, not always. Sometimes you hit a total block. And as a child and even as an adult, 
many times haven't been able to see or they have decided not to use it. A lot of times you do 
what you want to, regardless of what [?you see?]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  01:31 
How do you decide not to use it?  
 
Saranel Binyon  01:35 
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I think that your mind is made up before you even meet or talk to the person, and so it just 
doesn't come. Like, if you decide someone is really beautiful before you even meet him, and then 
when you look at him, he's still really beautiful [inaudible]. That type of thing, a choice of sight 
type of thing [inaudible].  
 
Katherin Hervey  02:01 
Like a [?switch?]? 
 
Saranel Binyon  02:02 
Well, sort of. More of an internal manipulation thing. 
 
Katherin Hervey  02:05 
But you don't really think about it? 
 
Saranel Binyon  02:08 
No, no, any more than you think about looking at me. When you see the way I look, you're not 
thinking, okay, now I'm gonna see her eyes, you know, it's just there. Or sometimes it's not there, 
sometimes the lighting all is wrong, and I don't see energies, or I'm tired. And I have learned, 
over the years to kind of turn it off, because if you go into a really, you know, crowded places, 
information overload. So, I've learned to switch it off [?and now I do it a lot easier?]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  02:37 
So would it, would it tire you out?  
 
Saranel Binyon  02:38 
[Inaudible]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  02:38 
Because you were little? 
 
Saranel Binyon  02:42 
Well, besides that. I didn't know really what it was, but I thought everybody saw it. And it wasn't 
until I think I was four, four or five, when I began to realize that other people didn't see that.  
 
Katherin Hervey  02:55 
What did you do-- You said you were alone a lot when you were a kid. What did you do to fill 
your days?  
 
Saranel Binyon  03:05 
Oh, I read. I read everything. I was allowed, we had a huge library, and I was allowed to read 
everything. And so I did. I read a lot, and I always had animals to play with. I had a horses that I 
rode, and always had cats and dogs, things like that, and I was very interested in, in nature. And 
when I was little, I could sit for two hours and watch an ant. I can't now, but as a child, I could 
do that. I also played the piano when I was young, and that was fun too, [inaudible]. And I 
learned to cook when I was quite young, I think, I was standing on a chair and learning to cook, 
and that was fun, but that wasn't something I did all the time. 
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Katherin Hervey  03:48 
You [inaudible] that when you were younger, you gave the impression of being different, and 
that this kind of scares people off. How do you think you did this? 
 
Saranel Binyon  04:00 
With adults, it was looking at them and really seeing them, and I had a really bad habit of, if they 
were lying, calling them on it. I learned not to do that by the time I was eight, I learned not to do 
that kind of stuff. And I think that when you look at people a different way, they feel it. If 
someone walks up behind you and you can feel them there, but you don't really know they're 
there, it's that type of thing. If someone looks at you really deeply and correctly, you feel like 
you've been looked at. And I think that, a lot of times, can make people very, very 
uncomfortable. So, I try not to do that unless I want to. 
 
Katherin Hervey  04:46 
What about with your peers, with your classmates? 
 
Saranel Binyon  04:48 
When I was in grade school, yes, and it did make people, I think an itsy bit-- I think kids maybe 
are aware and choose not to be. By the time that I was in junior high and high school, I learned 
not to do that, because it did make people feel weird. So, I just learned to either avert my eyes, or 
not to do it, not to see it. And that was, that was hard, that was a hard thing.  
 
Katherin Hervey  05:12 
That would seem weird, averting your eyes. 
 
Saranel Binyon  05:16 
Well, you just kind of look at them and slide your eyes down and not look directly at them. 
[?You can?] really look at somebody and then you can kind of move your eyes away. 
 
Katherin Hervey  05:34 
It probably wouldn't have been weird either because, like, when you're that age, most people 
don't really look at each other directly in the eyes anyway.  
 
Saranel Binyon  05:34 
No. The other thing I wanted to do was look at someone right between the eyes and they can't 
really tell. And that was the more [inaudible], so I did that too. 
 
Katherin Hervey  05:41 
You also, you also talked about school kind of being a game because it was so easy. Is there, 
like, other stuff in life that you found the same way, just kind of a big game? 
 
Saranel Binyon  05:57 
I think that's all that life is.  
 
Katherin Hervey  05:58 
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Really?  
 
Saranel Binyon  05:59 
Yeah, kind of your attitude. We have a choice. We can decide we're really suffering or decide 
that we're not. I mean, life is the same either way, and I think how we decide to look at it is how 
we make it for ourselves. To me, it's always been kind of interesting and kind of funny. I've had 
some really strange things happen throughout my life. I've noticed that when I choose to beat 
myself up and to be the victim, I suffer beautifully, for a long time. And when I decide, enough 
of that, [?and remember it's just?] what happens and let go of it, it goes away quickly. So, the 
same events at different time structures. 
 
Katherin Hervey  06:22 
Modeling, did you model from 13 to 37? 
 
Saranel Binyon  06:46 
Yes. 
 
Katherin Hervey  06:47 
Can you talk a little more about that? 
 
Saranel Binyon  06:50 
Yeah, I was always tall and had breasts earlier than most of my peers, so I looked older. And it 
was always really fun and easy and that's what I did. As I got in my teens, I did more hand stuff, 
like jewelry and cosmetics, where they'd just [?show?] hands. And that was my success. I had to 
keep my nails long all the time, that was before the plastic nails, and it's really a pain, in fact, to 
keep great long finger nails. I had to be really careful, because if I broke a nail, then I didn't 
work, and that was kind of a bummer. It was fun because it was just a no brainer job, no brainer 
job at all. I did a lot of runway stuff and a lot of catalog lingerie modeling which, when I look 
back, I think, oh, my God, it was not Victoria's Secret at all, like Sears and [inaudible], but it was 
fun, it was interesting.  
 
Katherin Hervey  07:39 
Did you just do local stuff, wherever you were, or did you actually travel with it?  
 
Saranel Binyon  07:55 
I did Texas. You know, I'm from Odessa, and I went to Dallas. That's as far as I went, because 
I'm not tall enough to really be good, you have to be a lot taller than me. 
 
Katherin Hervey  08:02 
So, before we left last time, you were talking about women's issues. What are prominent 
women's issues to you?  
 
Saranel Binyon  08:20 
First and foremost, I think the thing that really jumps out at me, every time I pick up a medical 
study, it always says so many members of men were tested. It never says people, it says men. 
And that makes me think, are we invincible or are we dispensable? Either or, it's not, it's not 
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cool. And I don't like the idea that we can do the same job and not get the same pay, that pisses 
me off. And when I was growing up, it was really hard for me to be subservient to my, even to 
my daddy. I mean, I didn't think he had any right to tell me what to do because he was a man. It 
really upset me, and consequently it's been hard for me to stay married for that same reason. 
Because I don't think that any human being, regardless of sex or whatever, has the right to tell 
another human being [?how and what to think?]. And all of that trickles down into how do we 
raise our children? Do we raise our, our boy children different than our girl children? And I don't 
think we should, we should raise them alike. Yes, there are differences. Okay, given that, women 
can achieve, I think, even more than men. And what I'd like to add to this and you may not-- 
include it or not, I'd like to like to [inaudible], if you really want a kid, about what it's all about. 
And I think that it's not necessarily so much about men and women as it is about power. Who is 
the controller and who is the one that is the servant. And throughout history, if a society is 
matriarchal, there are not wars, the children are well cared for, the house and plants are beautiful, 
blah, blah, blah. When men take control, immediately, the energy shifts to the power thing, to 
subterfuge, to all sorts of things that women really don't have time for or a desire for. And I think 
that it goes back to the beginning of time when our society was matriarchal and everything was 
lovely, and then the hordes of Huns came down from the north, they were masculine, they 
overpowered the female and totally took away any vestige of political power that we had by 
physically overcoming our puny little bodies. And because of that, it's still been in place. And 
when you think about it, men really stay in power because they are physically stronger. They can 
do more, they can work harder. But that's changing now, thanks to computers and modern 
science. I think that the next 100 years, we'll see another flip-flop of that. Wars will be no more, 
because women will be in charge. 
 
Katherin Hervey  11:15 
Do you think that women still have, like a destructive side to them, though? 
 
Saranel Binyon  11:22 
I think it's been in bred. I think that because of our association again, that we see that that can 
happen. And I'm sure that, by varying degree, women can be very brutal. Rarely do you find a 
woman that is a mass murderer. I mean, [?often?] one in 100 billion men, usually the national 
rules are white males, which is also [inaudible], what is it that happens to these people? I think 
that women can be power hungry and that can be destructive. But also, I think that as they learn, 
they want the power [inaudible]. And this isn't to say that they're always-- There will always be 
really strong and really weak women. However, a really weak woman can be a lot stronger than 
a really strong [?man?]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  12:20 
I know that religion and your spiritual life is also very important. Can you explain that at all? 
Maybe how you balance them, like your daily life with your spiritual life, or? 
 
Saranel Binyon  12:34 
Well, in the best of worlds, it would be the same. Our spirituality and our daily life would be-- 
Our daily life would be a reflection of our spirituality. And I try to do that as much as I can in 
society, in this type of society, and I think that one of the questions that's implied in the question 
you asked me is, what is the difference between spirituality and religion? And again, it goes back 
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to the male dominance. I think that most of the world's religions today are concocted by men 
who control women, and that sounds a little shallow, but when you strip it all away, that's 
basically what it is. Who makes the rules? Men. Who gets to be the leader? The men. Who gets 
to go sit in the corner during the time of menstruation? The women. Who have to be embarrassed 
because of their body? The women. So, early on, I decided that religion really was for men and 
not necessarily for me as a woman. So, spirituality then would be a recognizing of the spirit in 
each of us and the idea that our job here and our duty and our joy should be to grow spiritually. 
And that means to grow an understanding of who we are and what we have to offer and what we 
came here to do. Because I mean everybody has a reason for being here, and I think that's 
connected with spirit. When we get into trouble, it's going to disconnect our spirit from who we 
think we are and behave the way society would have us behave. I think that is a great, big 
problem, and I think that produces crime and mental illness and all sorts of stuff.  
 
Katherin Hervey  14:29 
You think that's what happens to most people? 
 
Saranel Binyon  14:35 
I don't know that it happens to most people. I think it happens to a lot of people. But I also have 
seen, the past 20 years, a shift from the shallow unaware to people becoming aware, most people 
that come to me, with whatever, wind up talking about their spirituality. And the biggest, the 
most-- I'll get a lot of questions about, "What is life about? What is my purpose? What is my 
spirit? What is my relationship to God?" And this type of thing that has always kind of surprised 
me, I don't think I could guess that. It's an, an amazing thing to me. I had a woman asked me the 
other day, "Well, what happens when we die?" Like, duh, like I know that stuff. It was really, I 
had to really think about it. I thought, well, she really was expecting an answer. So I told her 
what I thought, and hoped that that filled a little bit of the question, because we're all [inaudible]. 
Nobody knows, and yet we know everything.  
 
Katherin Hervey  15:52 
You feel that you know why you're here?  
 
Saranel Binyon  15:54 
Yeah.  
 
Katherin Hervey  15:54 
Why is that? 
 
Saranel Binyon  15:54 
To [inaudible], I've always known. I think it's to remind people who they are too, to help remind 
people, just to see them, who they are, and to let them know that they're [inaudible].  
 
Katherin Hervey  16:11 
And do you think that you've been doing that this whole time, like maybe through, you know, 
whether it be through teaching English or through-- 
 
Saranel Binyon  16:20 
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That's been my intent. Now, whether I did it or not, I don't know, but it was my intent to do it. 
 
Katherin Hervey  16:28 
Were you aware then, that was your, that was your intent?  
 
Saranel Binyon  16:33 
Yes. 
 
Katherin Hervey  16:34 
Could you in some way describe your psychic abilities?  
 
Saranel Binyon  16:39 
I'd like a better definition of psychic abilities, I don't know, I'm not sure what [?you want?].  
 
Katherin Hervey  16:49 
Last time you said that both that you, your mom, your grandmother had psychic abilities. 
 
Saranel Binyon  16:55 
Okay. When we talk about psychic abilities, we're talking, in my definition, about using senses 
that most people have but don't use. And that's the idea to really understand someone else's mind, 
basically, mind reading. Mine seems to manifest in being able to read people's illnesses. Now, 
why I had to get on this, I don't know. But that-- We are entering the time in the Zodiac of the 
wounded [?healer?], which is the Aquarius. And people that have been wounded and healed 
would naturally become healers. So, when we think about that, it seems purposely good in life, 
that there are those of us that can see people's illnesses and perhaps describe the illnesses to the 
person in such a way to help them overcome whatever the illness is. That's one way. Really, 
that's about all that I'm willing to talk about. 
 
Katherin Hervey  18:06 
That's fine, we can do other things. So, in what, in what situations would you use it, like out, in 
work or with your friends?  
 
Saranel Binyon  18:18 
Now, only when, only when I'm asked would I tell somebody. I do it automatically all the time, 
like when you look at someone to see if they're right and left handed, I'll look to see if their 
gallbladder is working. You know, it's just something I do, know these things. Or is someone an 
alcoholic or a drug addict, whatever, what's going on with that person? And what that does is it 
helps me talk to the person better than just to the person that they present to the world. And I 
really talk to the person as he is [inaudible]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  18:51 
So, you're still using it in some ways, even though you're not. 
 
Saranel Binyon  18:52 
I think so, yeah, I don't know how you could not.  
 
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Katherin Hervey  19:12 
So do you do the same thing when you can see people's energy? So you just kind of use it to 
feel? 
 
Saranel Binyon  19:17 
Well, that's what I do. I mean, just like the deal about the gallbladder, it is [inaudible] feel it. 
 
Katherin Hervey  19:22 
Oh, it is? 
 
Saranel Binyon  19:23 
Yeah. It's like, everything that you are is projected out around your body. And for instance, if 
you have a throat infection, the area in front of your throat is going to look different. When you 
think about a vibration and, you know how the heat rises across the pavement in the summer? 
Okay, if it's a distortion in that pattern, then something's not right within that pattern. So, a throat 
infection would appear as a distortion in that waving pattern. That's kind of a simplistic way of 
saying it. But that's how it works.  
 
Katherin Hervey  19:23 
But, yeah. It's understandable that way. 
 
Saranel Binyon  20:09 
Because everybody vibrates to a certain level, to a certain number. If that's distorted by, say, a 
virus that vibrates to a different number, it's going to look, it's going to hang there in the aura.  
 
Katherin Hervey  20:18 
Do you believe in reincarnation?  
 
Saranel Binyon  20:21 
Mm-hmm. 
 
Katherin Hervey  20:22 
Do you remember any of your past lives?  
 
Saranel Binyon  20:28 
Yeah, I do, I remember several of them. I want to tell you finally, reincarnation, I think we talked 
about this before that as I was growing up, my grandmother would talk about reincarnation. She 
would say that it was God's recycling plan and she would point out to us that when a tree dies, 
you know, it goes back into the ground, it's composted and usually comes back up as part of 
another tree. And she said, God doesn't waste anything, look around, you can tell that. So, why 
would he waste souls? It makes sense and so that's why that I was aware of it. Also, there have 
been times in my life that I've been sitting or standing someplace and been aware that really I'm 
not there, that I'm in another time. And if it hadn't scared me at that very time, at that moment, I 
wasn't frightened. I was looking to see where I was, with the realization it was probably a past 
life. 
 
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Katherin Hervey  20:36 
Is that how you that's how you remembered it? That's how you would remember a past life?  
 
Saranel Binyon  21:00 
Sometimes, yeah, there'd be all sorts of reasons. But sometimes you'll meet someone that you 
know, that you don't know-- in this life, you don't know, and as you look at their eye, at their 
eyes, because eyes have changed, the colors changed, but the personality didn't change, you can 
be pulled back into that time and remember that time. A lot of it's intent. What do you intend to 
know? What do you intend to remember? Are you brave enough to really look? 
 
Katherin Hervey  21:57 
Can you tell about your past lives?  
 
Saranel Binyon  21:59 
Mm-hmm. Oh, you want me to do that? 
 
Katherin Hervey  22:05 
Of course. 
 
Saranel Binyon  22:06 
The last one that I had was perhaps the one that would be more interesting. Did you see Titanic, 
the movie?  
 
Katherin Hervey  22:15 
Oh, no, no, actually I haven't. 
 
Saranel Binyon  22:15 
Well, I won't go either. And the reason being is that I died in the Titanic, and I have a real vivid 
memory of that. And I didn't know it until I was taking my mother, [inaudible], to the doctor, and 
I was looking at a magazine, and I opened it, and they showed the interior of the Titanic. At that 
moment, I slipped out of this time right back to sitting in the ballroom or the dining room, 
looking up the stairs. I was a man, my name was Peter or Philip, I didn't know, someone was 
talking to me, and the water came running down this crazy staircase, and I drowned. So, 
screaming, I was screaming out the door because I thought I was in the Titanic. It was really kind 
of traumatic, but just really funny. It was [yells]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  23:07 
So how did you come out of it?  
 
Saranel Binyon  23:31 
Well, when I hit the door and got into fresh air, then I thought, oh, no, here I am. But it really, 
really frightened me. It's like trying to wake up in a dream. [Inaudible], it was okay. Scary.  
 
Katherin Hervey  23:31 
So are you scared of water in any way, like drowning, now? 
 
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Saranel Binyon  23:25 
Oh, I was always just, you know, terrified of water and cannot swim to this day.  
 
Katherin Hervey  23:30 
Oh, really? 
 
Saranel Binyon  23:31 
I'm not just wildly afraid of it, because I know I can't swim and I'm not going to get in it, but the 
thought of being in a great big boat without a life preserver, I mean, I'm not going to do it. Thank 
you very much. [?And it is a, you know, fright?]. You want other ones? [Inaudible] [?all of 
them?]. Let's see, which ones am I willing to tell you? I haven't had that many. That one, okay. 
The next one that I remember, okay, I was in South America, somewhere, and because the 
country wasn't, it didn't have a name. Of course, I didn't know where I was, except when I woke 
up in that body, I was a black witch doctor. I was systematically turn people into frogs, not nice. 
And some of the people that, that I had met this lifetime were becoming frogs. And I thought that 
was kind of cute, because we have the law of karma sees [?she did payback?]. And these people 
have gotten their [?paybacks?] and I've gotten the same back by being really good.  
 
Katherin Hervey  24:51 
In this lifetime? 
 
Saranel Binyon  24:50 
Yeah, but I've been aware of it so that, that's helped me a lot. And then I had a couple of Mayan, 
like one time, and this was, this one kind of surprised me, because once you get into this and it 
starts happening and you let it flow, you never know when or what's going to trigger it. But I was 
sitting in a restaurant and looked over and saw this guy's face and whoosh back to, I was sitting 
at the top of the pyramid, an Incan pyramid, of course, they weren't called Incans then, 
[inaudible], and I was a princess, because as I looked, I had these feathers all over me. And I 
looked down, and they were, the soldiers were reaching in and pulling out the hearts of the 
captives and [?feeding?] them to a God. And I just thought that was totally disgusting. Anyway, I 
hadn't read anything about this, so, just disgusting, went back later and read that that, they really 
did. Okay, so I understood things a little bit better, anyway [inaudible]. So, my first incarnation 
was like, that I remember, was in Lemuria [inaudible], and it was, I was a deva, which is a tiny, 
little fairy-like creature that was creating plants and animals. And so when they talk about the 
spirit of the wound, or the wounded spirit, I think that many of us, with the first incarnation, [?if 
you wanted to know that?], was as a deva, creating things. 
 
Katherin Hervey  24:53 
What's Lemuria? Where is that? 
 
Saranel Binyon  25:16 
 It doesn't exist anymore, it was one of the first continents on earth, after the earth cooled, and 
then [inaudible] all about the [?space ride?], but we won't do that today. And when we came 
down to the planet, and we were allowed to incarnate in what form we wanted, and then it was 
chose to be creative, like gardeners, they're called devas and-- 
 
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Katherin Hervey  25:38 
So it wasn't like a human form? 
 
Saranel Binyon  27:07 
It was sort of human, sort of, yeah, we could kind of fly, but not like big birds. Kind of like a 
fairy today, you know, have you seen Tinkerbell? Kind of like that. 
 
Katherin Hervey  27:21 
Wait like, what timeframe would this be?  
 
Saranel Binyon  27:25 
Probably 10 million years ago.  
 
Katherin Hervey  27:30 
So when you say that you see people that trigger a past life, you mean like their actual faces or 
just their eyes? 
 
Saranel Binyon  27:37 
Sometimes the face structure, sometimes. Always the eyes, if I've known them in a past life. 
They may not know me, but I know them because I can see. And it's like seeing into the eyes, 
like trick photography, seeing and going deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper, that type of thing. And 
it's always very unusual to do that, but it also [inaudible]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  28:08 
So when you were turning people into frogs, were you a man or a woman?  
 
Saranel Binyon  28:10 
Oh, it's a man 
 
Katherin Hervey  28:11 
You were a man?  
 
Saranel Binyon  28:13 
Mm-hmm, I've been about equal men and women it seems, you know, I can remember both.  
 
Katherin Hervey  28:37 
Which do you like best?  
 
Saranel Binyon  28:38 
I have more power as a woman.  
 
Katherin Hervey  28:39 
How's that? 
 
Saranel Binyon  28:23 
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I'm more in my spirit. I think the earth is feminine and I think that energy makes women feel 
stronger. If we were a more, from my understanding, like a masculine planet, we'd want to be 
men, because it's more [inaudible]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  28:40 
Do you think men want to be women?  
 
Saranel Binyon  29:08 
I don't even [inaudible], I don't know. They should, if they [inaudible]. I mean, basically, we 
really need them for one thing now that we've got computers and [inaudible] and pretty soon we 
won't need them for that. 
 
Katherin Hervey  29:11 
What's that for?  
 
Saranel Binyon  29:10 
For procreation. All we need is their little sperm. 
 
Katherin Hervey  29:12 
We need the sperm. [Inaudible]. 
 
Saranel Binyon  29:17 
[?I think it's a good idea?], just think how clean everything would be. [They laugh]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  29:24 
So, these frogs that came back to, for payback time, what happened with that? Can you say? 
 
Saranel Binyon  29:34 
Yeah, two of them I had to marry and help support and all that kind of stuff.  
 
Katherin Hervey  29:41 
Oh, really?  
 
Saranel Binyon  29:41 
Yeah, that was icky. 
 
Katherin Hervey  29:45 
This was your? 
 
Saranel Binyon  29:46 
My ex husband here and Kerry, the guy I went to [inaudible] with, and basically apologized to, 
without words. Make a decent [inaudible].  
 
Katherin Hervey  29:59 
How do you know that they were your frogs?  
 
Page 13 of 13 
 
Saranel Binyon  30:04 
Because the eyes. I saw they were [inaudible]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  30:09 
Do they know? 
 
Saranel Binyon  30:09 
The first one doesn't. Kerry knew because I told him when he [inaudible]. 
 
Katherin Hervey  30:09 
He did?  
 
Saranel Binyon  30:09 
Yeah, he was very afraid of me. 
 
Katherin Hervey  30:09 
When you first met, or when you told him that?  
 
Saranel Binyon  30:21 
When we first met, he was very-- recognized me, and then did this, [screams], and then as I 
watched him, I realized, so I told him. And when you tell someone the truth, that they remember, 
they see it and [inaudible], talking about your family and that, that's how he felt. 
 
Katherin Hervey  30:52 
So your payback was through, was through being with him? 
 
Saranel Binyon  30:54 
Being with him and helping him grow and being nice and kind-- [recording ends]. 
 